Cyrodiil and Skyrim

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Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Worsas » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:13 pm

I will just quote what I wrote on the P:C-Forum:

Worsas wrote:There is something we've been discussing on the irc-chat off and on:

As some of you may know, I've been jumping forth and back between P:C and SHOTN quite a lot lately. And I'm not the only person who does that.

To me it is a problem, because I often suffer a nagging feeling of neglecting the respective other project, when I work on one of them without helping the other one for a while. That may sound silly and probably is, but that is what nearly gets me to a point where I want to quit one of the two projects, even though I consider my participation in either projects as crucial. That may sound as if I thought rather high of myself, but to me it often seems just to be the little bit of support I do in addition to what other people already do that can make all the difference.

You probably already see what I'm getting at: I propose we merge the projects. In the first place that would include using the same website and forum and a common organisation.

There are two big advantages and one possibly big disadvantage I see about doing this:

Advantages:
- We can compensate weaknesses the respective projects have. Skyrim has never been as strong on lore and "story" as P:C or TR, for example. Some parts of SHOTN are not as solidified and do not carry the mark of the nirn-universe as strongly as they maybe should. If we had a common forum, some of the people from P:C could stop by and give input without having to sign up somewhere else and involve themselves more than they want. Skyrim on the other hand, as far as I can tell, has a better workforce in the interior and exterior section and could lend a hand around here, which practically happens already anyway. But the fact that the forums are not divided would make it much more convenient for a couple of people, I imagine.

- There can be one person doing publicity for both projects. And we can use the same space for both projects to show off. It might be more likely that there is something to show off at a given by one of the projects.

- Together we might have an active staff size similar to that of TR. We would have a bigger weight in the modding-community as a collaboration that works on the active province mods, given that we can increase publicity in some way.

Disadvantage:
- We run into the risk of the presence of a sibling project on the same forum causing people to lose their focus and stray themselves too far. That aside, it would actually increase the feasibility and productivity to only do one of the two projects, anyway.

------------------------------

But I have spent so much effort on both projects that I want both to continue and at least reach some of their aims. Reaching that common release we've been speaking about, would already be an unlikely but desirable mark, I'd definetively love to see it hit and of course, seeing the Nibenay after that would be even better than that.

The way I see it there are only two ways I can go about this:
- I only work on one of the two projects and leave the other project to itself.
- We put the projects together and combine and optimize our capabilities and try to stem both projects.

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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Yeti » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:52 pm

I suppose it could work. Who would work on the new forum/website setup? I suppose we could move to the Province Cyrodiil site, since it is more advanced.

Province Cyrodiil and SHotN are much more likely to connect up in the near future, so I guess combining makes sense in that regard.

Would SHotN and Province Cyrodiil remain two separate mods worked on by the same team under this setup? Otherwise I don't have clue as to what we could call each other. :)
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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Scamp » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:04 pm

@Yeti, moving the whole thing to the P:C site (which is technically part of SGM's Project Tamriel) is the best thing we can come up with, I think.

I think we'd remain seperate teams for the most part, but connecting and collaborating would be so much easier with one single forum (divided in two development parts and some sort of "forum in between" for crossover discussions, maybe?). Not to mention that fans of both projects will have a much easier time following up on the whole thing.

Here's the thread so that you guys can read up on what's being said there: http://provincecyrodiil.project-tamriel ... f=4&t=1248
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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Worsas » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:13 pm

I think we will remain SHOTN and P:C only with a single forum and the possibilitiy to mod on both projects for all members.

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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby roerich » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:53 pm

I don't feel too good about this somehow. I will try to think about it and come up with a more substantial answer. What about having a portal for both projects? Like what SGMonkey was doing. With the respective forums on that site, but two different forums.
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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Worsas » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:10 pm

It's weird, because I have no bad feeling about this at all.

The only thing I fear is that moving to a common place will be a major fuss and takes away attention from many other things for a longer time.
Another danger that could arise, though, is that looking at a single aspect from a much larger context by having the neighbour province present could lead to carelessness and painting with much rougher strokes overall and maybe lose some of the unique identity. Then again, I also appreciate the bigger context, because it helps you making everything work together and integrate good ideas into this mod.

I try not to have an illusionary view on what we make. Will we ever finish any of these projects? Very unlikely. But I'm fine as long as we can put out quality content and tell a story with what we create.

The issue with just moving the forum to project-tamriel, is that it does not address any of the issues I have written about above. Having a common forum is supposed to get us rid from this jumping forth and back, I spoke about. If we have a common forum there will always be something going on, assuming that things will continue in a similar manner to now. We will not have the P:C-forum becoming completely quiet when people suddenly catch more interest in Skyrim and the other way around the Skyrim forum becoming a quiet place when the contrary thing happens, because everything would happen in a single forum.

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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Luxray » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:24 am

I am against the move, and in fact I have to disagree with quite a lot of your points Muspila.

Here is my view:

- more trouble to move everything than it's worth when we have a reasonable established setup here (it's not ideal, but it works)

- the fact we have a separate forum retains creative control, i.e. we can decide on things without half-interested parties from other forums coming and suggesting ideas that will never make it anywhere (think of the many terrible suggestions on TR's forum to this regard). Muspila says: If we had a common forum, some of the people from P:C could stop by and give input without having to sign up somewhere else and involve themselves more than they want. But I think if people have the attitude that SHOTN is something to drop across to when they feel the urge, I think any ideas then suggested are not guaranteed to be good. If people are genuinely interested in skyrim lore I don't see why they wouldn't take the thirty seconds it needs to make an account here.

- I quite like the fact we are our own thing with a slightly dodgy forum and a high reliance on our members. Since their change, I have hated (absolutely hated!) the more 'professional' outlook TR has tried to project with itself, which comes across as really fake to me. We are modders, not some giant web development company.

- I wouldn't wish to have a sense of obligation to work on a different project if we are all under the same banner. I have a distinct suspicion we would lose a lot of progress here, because people would be called away to work on something 'urgent' at P:C when we get Karthwasten released, simply because shotn then has the identity of being 'further along than the other project', which would take people away from working on things here and is generally a poor stance to take

- Would people really care about being a united modding team? I suspect not. + I don't want us to be in the position where we can't show something cool simply because there is a backlog of stuff to come out for P:C and we would have to 'wait our turn'.

In any case I think it would be a massive distraction from releasing Karthwasten, so I vote we hold off on any decision until after we have done that.

edit: please note that I don't hate anyone for suggesting the idea, I'm just don't like it. If everyone decides to do it, I shall be here as ever :D
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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Worsas » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:59 am

If several people are against the move, I don't think we should do it. I understand most of your points and I can imagine things going that way to a degree.

I'm really not as afraid as you, because we'll largely deal with the same people anyway. With some discipline one who wants could look past the subforum of the other project and stick with the one project, while other people would have less trouble working for both projects as they wish. Though, I think we might indeed lose some of our identity and some focus in a common forum, as I said above.

I don't want us to be in the position where we can't show something cool simply because there is a backlog of stuff to come out for P:C and we would have to 'wait our turn'.

I don't think the one project would force the other project to keep back stuff, if you point out your fear as explicit as this. We could really explicitly say that the projects are supposed to be and act independent. But it's something that could indeed happen, though, depending on how much individual identity the two projects retain respectively.

However I don't agree about the following point:
- the fact we have a separate forum retains creative control, i.e. we can decide on things without half-interested parties from other forums coming and suggesting ideas that will never make it anywhere (think of the many terrible suggestions on TR's forum to this regard). Muspila says: If we had a common forum, some of the people from P:C could stop by and give input without having to sign up somewhere else and involve themselves more than they want. But I think if people have the attitude that SHOTN is something to drop across to when they feel the urge, I think any ideas then suggested are not guaranteed to be good. If people are genuinely interested in skyrim lore I don't see why they wouldn't take the thirty seconds it needs to make an account here.

I think you are afraid of the wrong thing. I prefer a little bit low-quality input over a dead or at least very quiet forum myself. Apart from that the input by most P:C members isn't prone to be of low-quality, quite the contrary I believe. The fact that many people don't sign up here is due to the same reason I do not sign up at Project Outreach, for example. They feel like stray themselves too much. But that doesn't mean they couldn't have something valuable to say.

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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby roerich » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:15 am

I think my worries resembles very much what Luxray posted. At the very least I'd want Karthwasten released before we'd work on an obstacle like that.

Also, I somehow doubt if it would be worth it compared to what we would get out of it. I mean, moving forums and files and creating a new structure would be a huge and complicated task. If we could have a main forum with links to the subforums P:C and SHOTN, or just a shared website, yeah. I could see that working. I've never seen it as a problem checking both websites (I usually check both forums at the same time), and I think work would still be divided in periods between the two.

Alsoo, I must admit I feel more emotionally connected to SHOTN than P:C, where I understand if Worsas, Scamp and others who have contributed an enormous amount to both projects, have more connection to both, and less problem merging. This is probably also influencing my opinion and feelings about this. But as Luxray said, no matter the outcome I will respect people's decision and keep churning out interiors.
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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Worsas » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:13 am

An alternative way to go about this, would be trying to create a common login for both projects (merge users and have a common user-db) and have the two forums linked to from a common page that we use to do announcements for both projects and stuff.

That would make the barrier between the projects as small as thinkable possible and would offer most of the advantages, I spoke about. But there ought to be something like a common login and some kind of 'coming-together' on a main site, at least. Otherwise we'll have gained nothing.

Due to the amount of modding I put into both projects I feel forced to stray my effort between them. But I want to have work on both projects feel like work on a common effort and not have working on SHOTN feel like an antithesis to working on P:C. That is currently the case. People on both projects need stuff I make to enable progress. I always make one of the projects wait, or at least I feel like doing so. If we had this common platform and I would work exclusively on SHOTN for half a year, for example, it would maybe not be a loss on the side of P:C but rather just progress on the other end of the same effort, if you know what I mean.

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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby roerich » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:43 am

I think that is a very good solution, Worsas. I could see that happening.
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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Infragris » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:32 pm

Greetings, Infragris here from P:C. I'd like to assuage some doubts people seem to be having over this plan's benefits and drawbacks.

First, I think it's fair to say that P:C and SHotN share a lot of the same people, especially in leadership positions. This is important because (as Worsas says in the OP) it divides their attention, loosens their connection to what's going on on a day-to-day basis - which is bad for the focus and direction of both projects. Luxray, you've noted that you fear losing progress on SHotN because people would feel an obligation to work on P:C, but that is exactly what is happening right now. A merger would ease the work of project leadership immensely, allow them to make reasoned decisions about where to allot their time (finishing the more advanced project, for example, instead of jumping to what only seems in need), and allow modders in general to divide their attention in a constructive manner, without feeling like they are neglecting one mod for another.

On a related note, ShotN should never be forced not to show something or hold a finished release off because P:C isn't ready yet or vice versa. That would be a completely counterproductive way of doing things, and since so many people straddle the line between both projects it's unlikely to happen if it hasn't happened yet. It is definitely not the intention for one of the projects to be in a position of authority over to the other.

This merge should also in no way obligate people to work on something they don't care about. This was something that came up when we last updated P:C's structure: we focused on tearing down distinctions between planning and execution, allowing exterior modders more liberties with the interiors in their claims (among other things). There were objections that this would increase the workload of exteriors and force modders to work on things they do not like, but what it really comes down to was that people had the option and the opportunity to do these things, never the obligation. We are not professionals, and part of that means that contributors to these mods can never be forced to do something: everything is freely given.

Lastly, I think we can never underestimate the importance of seeing activity on the forums. For a semi-active modder who checks in occasionally to see how the project is advancing, there is nothing more discouraging than to see no new topics or progress reports in weeks. The same goes for new people who feel like contributing. It gives the impression that the project is dead, and that nobody aside from them really cares to keep going. Regular activity, even in topics that are not immediately related to your own work, can be a huge motivator in this.

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Re: Cyrodiil and Skyrim

Postby Griff » Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:17 pm

I know I am not around much anymore, but I agree with everying luxray has pointed out. Why change something that already works. And we are kinda working like one project with P.C anyway.
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