Atmorans, Nedes and Reachmen

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Atmorans, Nedes and Reachmen

Postby Yeti » Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:18 am

The First PGE says that Reachmen are originally descended from one of the earliest Atmoran tribes to settle Tamriel. Seemingly, this conflicts with Ysgramor leading the first Atmorans to Tamriel. Does this mean that smaller tribes had already arrived in Tamriel and that Ysgramor arriving first is simply propaganda/historic revisionism? If they are of Atmora, how and why did their culture come under Elvish influence?

Or are the Reachmen -and by an extension, the Bretons, primarily descended from Nedes? And exactly who were the Nedes? Humans native to Tamriel before Atmoran settlement? I've read elsewhere that humans had always lived on Tamriel and some simply branched off and settled Atmora, later returning as Nords.

Here are some quotes I found around the web that might help us develop the background lore for our mod that relates to the origin of the races:

"And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes != Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime." ~MK

"The usual Imperial arrogance. The hoary old "Out of Atmora" theory has been widely discredited (no reputable archaeologist would publicly support it these days), but the Imperial Geographers continue to beat the drum of the Nordic Fatherland in the best tradition of the Septim Empire. They seem to think that the imprimature of officialdom gives their outdated scholarship added weight -- which, unfortunately, it appears to in the eyes of the ever-gullible public which continues to snap up the latest Pocket Guides along with the rest of their Imperial Certified pablum." ~Kurt Kuhlmann

"....the accounts of the origins of Men differ from culture to culture. Note how the somewhat dubious scholarship of the 3rd Edition Pocket Guide to the Empire asserted that Nedics were the progenitors to the Nords, having come to Tamriel from the cold and bitter wastes of the Atmoran continent sometime during the Merethic (Mythic) Era, flying in the face of previous studies. The most famous of these, of course, is Gwylim Press’ own “Frontier, Conquest, and Accomodation,” which portrays the Nedics as a Mannish race indigenous to Tamriel, extant and flourishing long before the arrival of Ysgramor’s ancestors. In any case, the truth of prehistoric Man is most likely lost in the god-time impossibilities of the Dawn, where no absolute answers will ever come on any subject at all." ~MK


Pilaf The Defiler wrote:The lore gets really muddy on that point, actually. We have conflicting reports about what the differences between Nedes and Atmorans actually is. I personally believe that either Nedes were the first proto men who existed all over Tamriel after the Ehlnofey descended into mortal form, or that they originated on Tamriel and then spread out to Atmora and Akavir, and the ones who came back from Atmora later were Nords. The rest became the proto-Imperial tribes and the proto-Bretons. Some originated on Yokuda and stayed there until it was damaged, and became Redguards.

Regardless of what you wanna call them, Nedes or Atmorans, they primarily have a mannish appearance. I'd say the probability of them containing a duke's mixture of blood is pretty high though, even more so than the average Breton.

They came from an isolated area and were traditionally considered a sort of animist or barbarian culture. Their land holdings also exist right along the borders of several provinces, along trade routes. Since they're largely considered to be comprised mainly of Breton stock the odds of them having Aldmeri/Direnni blood is very high.

I'd say it's even pretty likely there's some ancient Falmer or even Dwemer admixture as well, especially from individual members of those cultures who were a bit more pragmatic and less nationalistic. It makes sense. If you happen to settle into a mountain community with people living nearby, and it's a somewhat harsh existence, you're not gonna obsess over nationality or stuff like that. A potential new member of the tribe is seen as a potential asset. A worker, a hunter/gatherer, a warm body and a potential father or mother for future generations. That's why I believe there's probably some Orc blood mixed in, too. While the mainstream Bretons long shunned the Orsimer, I can't imagine those same prejudices existing in the Reach area. It's just a different, more pragmatic existence, like early men in our own world, which is why we all have a little Neanderthal and Erectus DNA in us to this day.

For those same reasons it's likely there's some Yokudan, Colovian and Nibenese blood mixed in there as well. Again, for pragmatic purposes. They're located along trade routes. Maybe an Imperial or Redguard caravaner decides to settle down and live the simple life. Just another man or woman to contribute to the gene pool. I'd say the Reachmen and other similar border communities in Tamriel are a lot like the real world Tri-Racial Isolates, a classification that could apply to myself, so I'm familiar with the history of how such mixture can occur, and I believe it probably applies quite a bit in low fantasy settings as well.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Or maybe Michael uncer-complicated it for the sake of simplicity. Atmorans=Nedes doesn't explain where they originated or how they later diverged, even if it's true. Other sources are contradictory, with some saying Nedes are aboriginal to Tamriel, moved to Atmora and then back. I personally think it's most likely that both could be true. Not every Nede left for Atmora, and not every Atmoran was a Nede. It's entirely plausible some of the Wandering Ehlnofey settled in Atmora before the Nedes intermingled with them, but this happened so very long ago and so gradually that there's no significant difference in biology or culture. It's kind of like the Ethnogenesis concept. "Atmoran" and "Nede" are more cultural titles than "Races", especially since at the time these groups exist the races of men hadn't changed very much and with the exception of Yokudans were almost physically identical. Hell, they still are for most practical intents and purposes.

This is from Adanorcil, former Head of Lore at TR

Adanorcil wrote:I feel this matter is generally just overcomplicated. Everyone was born in Tamriel at the beginning of the world (or the ending of the last one). Some people left for Atmora and later returned. Others stayed and were known as Nedes by the early First Era.

Most of the reason why I made this post, though, is because I wanted to point out something that no one has explicitly mentioned before, namely what I believe to be a rather conscious choice of words and themes in Frontier and Conquest. The term 'frontier' is so tied up in popular imagination and discussions of the history of the United States I think it shouldn't take a non-American to point out its significance. 'New World', "fleeing civil war" and "settlers" all tie into the same story, I feel.

All that terminology is clearly no coincidence. Just like intellectually honest historiography slowly began to deconstruct the myth of the settling of the United States, this book once sought to dispel the myth of the Tamrielic empires being entirely Skyrim's achievement. Everything fits: the escape across the ocean to a new wild continent, a small group of brave settlers, the romantic notion of a smooth, unidirectional wave of settlement and particularly the gross underrepresentation of the people who already lived there in the first place.

Khevsureti wrote:The identity of the Nedes is only complex because of confusion amongst the writers, which is more usefully seen as confusion amongst Tamriellic scholars. It has different usages in different real world and Tamriellic eras.

*A pre-Ysgramor Atmoran migrant originally (and this keeps getting cited)

*'The Nedic Peoples' as a blanket term for probably indigenous populations in more recent war

*Nedes as just one tribe of many indigenous Cyrodiilic groups in KotN lore

Anyone notice that Skyrim's loading screens peddle the Ysgramor-leads-the-first-humans-to-Tamriel crap? [
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Re: Atmorans, Nedes and Reachmen

Postby Worsas » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:52 am

I have come up with the idea of them being descendants of Atmoran settlers again, because I feel that it gives them an interesting additional layer. How they came unter Elvish influence is probably the same story as with the Bretons. They inhabited a place under the rule of the Altmer clans of Highrock and were enslaved just like other humans. It would explain that same magical affinity Bretons have. That little sentence from the 1st pg is probably a throwaway one, if you want so (especially since all humans except of Redguards according to the 1st pg came from Atmora). But why throw away, if we can make something from it?

And exactly who were the Nedes? Humans native to Tamriel before Atmoran settlement? I've read elsewhere that humans had always lived on Tamriel and some simply branched off and settled Atmora, later returning as Nords.

I think that has become the established view.

Seemingly, this conflicts with Ysgramor leading the first Atmorans to Tamriel. Does this mean that smaller tribes had already arrived in Tamriel and that Ysgramor arriving first is simply propaganda/historic revisionism?,_Conquest...

A regular ingame-book most of you probably know. It already says it all. Of course, someone has to be wrong, either the writers of the pocket guides or the author of this book, but the argument of nord-related propaganda of the septim empire purposely making the human settlement an achievement of Skyrim, could make sense. Your quotations really say the rest on the matter.

If they are of Atmora, how and why did their culture come under Elvish influence?

Varieties of Faith even speaks of a period of Elven rule of Atmora. If any of that is true, is a different question. It's all very mysterious and doesn't need to be given a definite answer on our part. What's much more important for us is the Nordic take on history, in general, which isn't quite a scientific one. Many of the claims made about history are based on their oral traditions, that really see the past as a tool to transport lessons to the auditor rather than a 100% presentation of past facts (if that's even to be desired in fantasy universe).

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Re: Atmorans, Nedes and Reachmen

Postby roerich » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:23 am

Good post, Yeti. Ysgramor being the first Atmoran settler has long been viewed as propagandic bullcrap (actually Ysgramor's whole life may be several early Nordic kings muddled up in the mists of time and shoddy record keeping). Having both aboriginal Nedes on Tamriel, Nedic settlers from Atmora and Atmoran settlers from Atmora is a good solution. I like to keep some of these things conflicting though.
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решение данного вопроса

Postby Justinfum » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:55 pm

Спасибо ТС за обсуждение этого вопроса
Жду еще рекомендции.

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